A. octospinnosus multiple queens from a captive swarm

Ideas, techniques, problems and issues associated with keeping Leaf Cutting Ants in Captivity
User avatar
PAKOC
Egg
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:14 pm

A. octospinnosus multiple queens from a captive swarm

Post by PAKOC » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:04 pm

Hi everyone, first time posting but I'm not unfamiliar with some of the people here in real-life... Acromyrmexbob might recognise the username? :lol:

I've had experience with various colonies of Acromyrmex and Atta on and off for 21 years now and this is the first time I have seen this happen with an Acro colony. Just thought it might be of some interest, if it hasn't been seen before or if anyone can shed some light, or an opinion, on the matter would be great.

I currently have two colonies of A. octospinnosus and one of them was an escapee colony within my heated animal shed all through most of last year and part of the year before. The colony escaped out it's tub and had set itself up behind a fish tank between the glass and the wall. It used a cable from an aquarium heater as its anchor point and it did really well. In the summer they could be seen going out under the door and bringing back leaves... All good!

Anyway, I had to move the colony because I split the shed in half to make a subtropical section and the colony was obviously in the side that was to be at 10 - 14C through the winter. I managed to get almost all the fungus and most of the ants and put it back into an ant tank, making sure I had the queen. A few weeks later the first winged sexuals appeared. I have had this plenty times before but I remember noting that this time there were lots of both sexes present at the same time. The winged sexuals hung about for weeks and months and occasionally I would find some that had ended up drowned in the top of fish tanks or climbing walls after they flew the nest. Gradually this all stopped and other than once in a while I would see an odd winged queen with the foraging ants.
So, fast forward again a few weeks and I started to think the colony wasn't doing well. I had been working crazy hours and I will admit a tiny bit of neglect, but they were not foraging as well as usual (or as well as the other colony) and refusing leaf species they once accepted. I was worried that perhaps the queen had died or some other problem and so I had to explore into their tank. The fungus garden that used to be the size of a rugby ball was now only the size of a golf ball and way too many ants. I culled loads of workers and moved the fungus to a new set up, new soil etc. However, this time I had about half a dozen queens! Obviously I had no way to tell which was the original queen because unlike Atta the Acromyrmex queen seems to stay quite mobile so I checked I had all the queens I could see and moved them all with the garden.

I had a look at them over the last weekend and the garden has regrown to about fist-sized and I can see new eggs and larvae. I think the colony will recover as I obviously still have a viable queen. However, there are now multiple queens. I can see a section of the garden through the plastic and I can even see queens side by side and touching each other’s antennae.
I don’t know why the colony’s fungus crashed because it had the exact same set-up and care as the other colony. The obvious difference is the presence of winged sexuals. My half-arsed theory is that because the ants are kept in a shed with no external cues to the outside world, they did not leave the nest as a swarm to breed. Therefore, they stayed at home with mum and demolished the garden by taking precedence over the rest of the of the colony?

So I have some questions –

If a queen leaves a nest and doesn’t mate – can she live as long as a mated queen? My understanding is that queens use up energy supplies from their wing muscles to set up a new colony and don’t feed off the fungus, therefore they die. This might be wrong?
Assuming these queens have not mated, can they live as long as a mated queen within their birth colony?

Is there a chance that in their cramped living space, compared to the wild, that some actually mated with males from the same nest due to the lack of nuptial flight cue and therefore are viable fertile queens now laying eggs? Is that why they never left home?

I’ve dug up several nests over the years with Andrew that had multiple queens – is this species just more likely to have kids that never leave home? I might be wrong but I seem to remember splitting colonies with multiple queens and getting viable colonies?

Or do I just have a bunch of freeloader good for nothings that are an excessive pressure on the colony and putting the workers off their jobs? The colony is still fussy as hell and will take privet, orange pith and dandelion okay (not quickly) but almost everything else the other colony takes is now being ignored? Bearing in mind that this is a colony that once had workers demolish an entire binbag and a newspaper in one night, only for the bits to be chucked out the next day by disgusted gardeners!

Cheers
P.A.K.O.C.

(Colin)

RichardP
Worker
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:30 am

Re: A. octospinnosus multiple queens from a captive swarm

Post by RichardP » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:21 pm

That's fascinating.. I don't have any advice to offer sadly but really interesting to hear.

Formica123
Sub-Major
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:59 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: A. octospinnosus multiple queens from a captive swarm

Post by Formica123 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:43 am

Very interesting post. This reminds me very much of jackies colony, but even more so of a friends Messor colony. Every year they produce alates and a handful of them remove their wings and go back to the mother colony (they are infertile) and can live for a long time. They resume the role of a normal worker before eventually being killed or naturally dying.
I'm not sure about acromyrmex - but alates from my friends Messor colony gave life as long as 1 year.
I keep over 20 species of ant, inc. Acromyrmex Octospinosus
Owner of AntKeepingShop (www.antkeepingshop.weebly.com)

User avatar
Andyj
Site Admin
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 7:26 pm
Location: Sunny Devon
Contact:

Re: A. octospinnosus multiple queens from a captive swarm

Post by Andyj » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:52 am

Also thinking of Jackies 14 year old colony which finally succumbed. Her Alates were helping out in the colony and also cutting leaves but the colony dwindled away very quickly. I suppose, ( based on zero science ) that Acros are polygenic and a certain amount of tolerance within the colony may occur. I have similar with my colony but only have winged Queens and they are all just moving around the fungus probably waiting to become sexually mature or waiting for males before attempting to fly. Only one has made it to the foraging area and she died after about 4 days probably starvation. I don't think any new queens would be viable as mating is done at altitude but who knows.

I think Andrew is gallivanting around the world again and probably has an answer for you. Keep us posted though. All very interesting stuff.

User avatar
Leafcutter
Minim
Posts: 256
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: A. octospinnosus multiple queens from a captive swarm

Post by Leafcutter » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:35 am

Andrew is back on the 17th, he's in Trinidad at the moment doing you know what apparently.

Atta cephalotes (2019)
Camponotus detritus (2018)
Camponotus maculatus (2018)

User avatar
PAKOC
Egg
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: A. octospinnosus multiple queens from a captive swarm

Post by PAKOC » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:24 am

Thanks for replies - does the Jackie colony have a thread on this site to look through?

I think what's different compared to any big Acro colony I have had before (and one colony filled a space of about 60x45x45cm full of fungus) is that there seemed to be a lot of both sexes at the same time and not just one, as per usual. Just wondering if mating might have taking place - guess i'd only know if I split up the garden between all the queens and watched to see if they produced viable eggs.

AndyJ - my lot just mulled about the fungus too for a long time. I'm sure they are just waiting for the cue to have their nuptial flight, which never comes... full moon, high/low pressure???? something that doesnt happen to make them all leave at once. My colonies only have a moat within a heated shed so they can easily just climb to the feeding area and take off from there if they wanted. That's why I would often find them floating in fish tanks or walking about, but only ever in ones or twos, not a swarm.

Perhaps it's a hormonal cue from another nearby nest that triggers them?

My second colony just now is doing well but never seen a winged sexual yet

cheers

User avatar
PAKOC
Egg
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: A. octospinnosus multiple queens from a captive swarm

Post by PAKOC » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:27 am

Just found jackie's thread... ta

Formica123
Sub-Major
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:59 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: A. octospinnosus multiple queens from a captive swarm

Post by Formica123 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:31 am

PAKOC wrote:Thanks for replies - does the Jackie colony have a thread on this site to look through?

I think what's different compared to any big Acro colony I have had before (and one colony filled a space of about 60x45x45cm full of fungus) is that there seemed to be a lot of both sexes at the same time and not just one, as per usual. Just wondering if mating might have taking place - guess i'd only know if I split up the garden between all the queens and watched to see if they produced viable eggs.

AndyJ - my lot just mulled about the fungus too for a long time. I'm sure they are just waiting for the cue to have their nuptial flight, which never comes... full moon, high/low pressure???? something that doesnt happen to make them all leave at once. My colonies only have a moat within a heated shed so they can easily just climb to the feeding area and take off from there if they wanted. That's why I would often find them floating in fish tanks or walking about, but only ever in ones or twos, not a swarm.

Perhaps it's a hormonal cue from another nearby nest that triggers them?

My second colony just now is doing well but never seen a winged sexual yet

cheers
I've actually been focusing on captive breeding for about a year now in different genus' of ants. Mainly Formica and Myrmica. It's turns out, it's actually very easy, and very discrete. I was able to get most species that I used to mate in single pétri dishes - as long as the conditions were right. So there's a high chance, if you have male and female alates, that there are some new, fertile queens.
I keep over 20 species of ant, inc. Acromyrmex Octospinosus
Owner of AntKeepingShop (www.antkeepingshop.weebly.com)

Formica123
Sub-Major
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:59 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: A. octospinnosus multiple queens from a captive swarm

Post by Formica123 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:33 am

Formica123 wrote:
PAKOC wrote:Thanks for replies - does the Jackie colony have a thread on this site to look through?

I think what's different compared to any big Acro colony I have had before (and one colony filled a space of about 60x45x45cm full of fungus) is that there seemed to be a lot of both sexes at the same time and not just one, as per usual. Just wondering if mating might have taking place - guess i'd only know if I split up the garden between all the queens and watched to see if they produced viable eggs.

AndyJ - my lot just mulled about the fungus too for a long time. I'm sure they are just waiting for the cue to have their nuptial flight, which never comes... full moon, high/low pressure???? something that doesnt happen to make them all leave at once. My colonies only have a moat within a heated shed so they can easily just climb to the feeding area and take off from there if they wanted. That's why I would often find them floating in fish tanks or walking about, but only ever in ones or twos, not a swarm.

Perhaps it's a hormonal cue from another nearby nest that triggers them?

My second colony just now is doing well but never seen a winged sexual yet

cheers
I've actually been focusing on captive breeding for about a year now in different genus' of ants. Mainly Formica and Myrmica. It's turns out, it's actually very easy, and very discrete. I was able to get most species that I used to mate in single pétri dishes - as long as the conditions were right. So there's a high chance, if you have male and female alates, that there are some new, fertile queens.
I also forgot to add that the problem is, with ants, unless it's a strictly multi-queened species, there is usually 1 'mother' queen who lays the eggs and more 'backup queens' who lay not half as many, so they won't make much of a difference unless you separate them. I'm not sure how this would work with Acromrymex
I keep over 20 species of ant, inc. Acromyrmex Octospinosus
Owner of AntKeepingShop (www.antkeepingshop.weebly.com)

User avatar
Acromyrmexbob
Site Admin
Posts: 2199
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:32 pm

Re: A. octospinnosus multiple queens from a captive swarm

Post by Acromyrmexbob » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:11 pm

Colin, as I live and breathe!!
It is ridiculous that you have joined using that username, such an ass! I will explain to everyone why this is so outrageous later!!
Colin and I are friends and work colleagues who go back a great many years, and Colin has travelled with me to Trinidad many many times as well as for me on his own to get Leaf cutters. He has very much played down his own experience of these ants and many other areas of exotics where he has forgotten more than I will ever know, most notably, he is a world authority on cephalopod husbandry, having co-written a fantastic book on this subject. He has an encyclopedic knowledge of Bettas, having bred so many species that I think it would be easier to list the ones he has not bred and he recently turned his hand to breeding Poison arrow frogs with great success. I consider Colin to be a kindred spirit and I am very very happy he has chosen to join here and post.
Multiple unmated queens are relatively common in all captive Acromyrmex colonies that get to a certain size where they produce winged sexuals. Because the environmental parameters that trigger a nuptial flight never come about in captivity these winged sexuals remain in the nest. The males either die off after a while or are killed. Now it gets interesting. There are theories which cover this kind of occurrence. Because Acromyrmex queens forage for food during colony founding (Atta queens do not) then Acromyrmex can display a very specific type of behaviour in these circumstances. Species of ants which are carnivorous would simply eat the males and queens so the colony can recover some of the energy they have expended producing them. However Acromyrmex cannot do this so the way they recover this energy from these useless queens is by putting them to work as super workers, cutting leaves, defending the colony etc etc. However the theory predicts that this strategy only works if the colony do not feed these worker queens and this seems to be the case. It is possible that these queens, when they are foraging, drink or eat the sap from the leaves in order to sustain themselves but they do not seem to obtain any sustenance from the resources of the colony and after a time they will die, having worked of their debt of energy to the colony. I would be interested in your observations on this behaviour and if you have seen any of this.
Multiple queen colonies normally occur in Acromyrmex when several newly mated queens group together to give each a better chance of success when founding a 'super colony'. It is sometimes the case that mated queens that land near their parent colony are carried back underground by the workers but I think it is more normal for multiple queens to form at the start. In an interesting side note I recently read a paper where it was found that these multiple queened colonies have a very strict heirarchy and the one at the bottom of this pyramid has to go outside and risk death from predators to forage for leaves. What was interesting in this research was that they removed this foraging queen and found that the other queens were very reluctant to take up the slack, in several cases to the extent where all of the fungus died due to lack of feeding. Fascinating stuff!
I do not think that females and males really ever mate in captivity. Attines mate at altitude, the males swarm at height and several will mate with each queen as she arrives in the swarm. The reason Acros and Attas are not routinely bred in captivity is because recreating the necessary conditions to mate are almost impossible. Two things though. Firstly remove the heads of 50 workers and put them in a morter and pestle and grind them up. Then take some of this paste and smear it around the entrance to your nest containing your winged sexuals. They will immediately swarm. From memory this is because the hormone which initiates a swarm is found in the heads of workers and the process of beating the sh*t out of a pile of heads frees this. Secondly, once your afore mentioned winged sexuals have left the nest, cut the heads off the males and their sex organs will become distended. The theory is that you should then be able to copulate these with queens although having tried this I found the procedure to be very difficult.
So great to have you here, P.A.K.O.C., need to have you and family over some time. Andrew

Post Reply