A Conversation about Condensation

Questions and Discussions for experienced keepers. Post here to engage our community in an exchange of ideas, report on tried and tested techniques and to discuss issues and observations likely to stimulate an challenge.
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Acromyrmexbob
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A Conversation about Condensation

Post by Acromyrmexbob » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:50 pm

This is a repost from a thread I ran at RFUK. Thought you might be interested.

One for the purists here. Everytime I mention my fascination with all of the elements of Life Support within an enclosure the people closest to me pat me on the head in an understanding manner and then tell me to shut the up! However I have long contemplated the enigma of condensation and have some fairly 'mind bamboozling' things to say on the subject that, I think, could change the way you think about all things wet. Once I've said my piece, if noone says anything and my beloved topic remains barren of replies I will do what they tell me to and keep quiet.
The first thing to say is this. The presence of condensation in a tank can often be a sign that your humidity is too low! That one needs some sort of reaction from you to explain it. Secondly if you have a highly humid terrarium with a hide or burrow or another container within it, the humidity in that area will almost certainly be lower than the rest of the terrarium. Again I don't want to waste masses of time explaining how I have arrived at these universe altering observations unless you are interested so let me know your opinions and we can talk. Importantly if either or both of these statements are true it points to why losses occur in what appears to be perfectly maintained habitats. So do I put up or shut up?

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Acromyrmexbob
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Re: A Conversation about Condensation

Post by Acromyrmexbob » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:52 pm

Condensation forms on any surface which is of a lower temperature than the air which surrounds it. Ironically this is the main principle of a dehumidifier. You pass air over a refrigerated plate and the moisture in the air condenses on the cold surface and drips into a tray. So where there is a cooler surface in a terrarium the moisture in the air will condense on it. Unfortunately when you look at a standard terrarium this cooler surface is almost always the front. The back is insulated against the wall and the top is always warmer because of the heating in the tank. This leaves ends and front, normally exactly the parts of the unit you are looking at the animal through. Very inconvenient. But more importantly the presence of condensation means humidity has been removed from the air, which means that, potentially, your air borne humidity is too low.

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Acromyrmexbob
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Re: A Conversation about Condensation

Post by Acromyrmexbob » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:52 pm

A while ago something happened to one of our commercial Leaf Cutting Ant set up's which took ages for me to work out the cause. The entire display case was sitting at a perfect 85% humidity and within that display case was a nest tank made of glass. This housed the colony of ants which over a period of around 6 months gradually declined and finally died despite constant adjusting of the temperature, humidity, food types etc etc on offer. What we didn't do, until too late, was to check the humidity within the nest tank. It seemed there was no point since the humidity surrounding the nest tank was perfect. Infact the humidity inside the nest tank was around 50%, too low for Leaf Cutters. How could this be? It did not make sense until I started to think through the possible causes. The temperature inside the nest tank, as a result of the activity of the ants within, would be very slightly higher than the rest of the surrounding display tank. The consequence of this was that the glass of the nest tank was slightly cooler that the air inside the nest. This caused condensation to form on the inside of the nest, a fact that seemed to suggest to everyone that the humidity was really good when in fact all of the airborne humidity that was entering the nest tank was being condensed on the side. The result was dry air in the nest tank, the very location within the display that we were trying to keep very humid! This same dynamic would apply to any hide or shelter you put in your terrarium to provide cover for your animals. If the presence of a spider or an amphibian in a burrow or a crevice within your display causes even a fraction of a temperature rise compared to the rest of the tank then this differential will cause that particular space to become dryer than the rest of the habitat. If this is the most attractive or most secure hide for a shy animal then the animal has to make a choice, to remain hidden in an area which is not ideal in terms of life support parameters or to expose itself out in the open. Normally they will remain wedged in their hide. I think this is potentially very interesting.

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Acromyrmexbob
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Re: A Conversation about Condensation

Post by Acromyrmexbob » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:53 pm

To complete the description of the problem , and before discussing possible solutions, this problem is only a part of the overall difficulty when trying to contain all of the elements of Life Support within a relatively small space. What about the problem of ventilation, a traditional remedy for condensation. When you consider what ventilation is actually doing, things get less clear. Efficient ventilation involves the movement of fresh air into an area and the loss of undesirable air out. Unfortunately along with your air you are also losing temperature, humidity and 'ambience' the scents and smells of the animals environment. Worse, you are replacing this air, which your equipment (heaters, humidifiers etc) has so efficiently 'treated', with untreated air from outwith the enclosure. If you have a flow of fresh air through your enclosure, ticking the 'ventilation' box, you are almost certainly exposing your animal to unplanned temperature gradients and humidity gradients. It does not make sense to me to design a life support system based on probes that read these parameters in a particular location, giving the impression that all is well, and in fact the animal could be chilled or overheated, desiccated or over hydrated, all depending on the air qualities OUTSIDE your viv and the position within the enclosure that your animal happens to be sitting. Life in small places is complicated enough without these additional problems and I put it to you that there needs to be a rethink and a redesign of not only the way equipment operates within these housing receptacles but also of the receptacles themselves.

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Deansie26
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Re: A Conversation about Condensation

Post by Deansie26 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:44 pm

That was a really informative great read! So many folk will assume that condensation on the glass etc will indicate high humidity, I did when I started out keeping inverts.
I think it's the hardest aspect of keeping leaf cutters.
Thanks for sharing, really gets the mind going!

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Re: A Conversation about Condensation

Post by Formica123 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:20 am

Well I thank you for this post! My fungus was growing a little slower than usual (still quite large) the past few days - I moistened the nest and last night fungus has grown 1/3 of the size!
I keep over 20 species of ant, inc. Acromyrmex Octospinosus
Owner of AntKeepingShop (www.antkeepingshop.weebly.com)

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Re: A Conversation about Condensation

Post by Atta solider » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:13 pm

So my tank were the nest is 85/90% humdity but I can't get it keep at 90 tho but I've got coco fibre that is good keep humdity high and temp same and keeps the soil wet so no need keep it spraying if you get me as I spray with warm water in the tank

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Acromyrmexbob
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Re: A Conversation about Condensation

Post by Acromyrmexbob » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:27 pm

I dont think 85-90% humidity is a problem to be honest.

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Re: A Conversation about Condensation

Post by Deansie26 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:22 am

In the set up you talk about above Andrew how did you resolve the issue, remove the internal glass tank?

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Re: A Conversation about Condensation

Post by Jackie62 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:46 am

Very interesting read Andrew, thank you. I guess our colony does have quite a bit of space, therefore temperature/humidity/air changes probably do not affect them so much. After 14 years, they are still ticking along, although there have been some changes within the colony. I am loathe to change anything set-up-wise as it all does seem to work well at this present time.

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